Cies
Member
Reged: 07/11/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
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...Right, all advice and views appreciated. I am on my first Agile team. They're not truly Agile (don't respect the timebox, don't really iterate, don't really plan) but they did ask for me (the tester) to be embedded within the team, as this is the "Agile way".
I am struggling with getting the devs to include me (there are 6 of them, a scrum master who's really a tech lead, and me, the tester) in what they're working on, and to get them to give me small, early deliverables to test. My work is not accounted for in the plan, so I find myself working flat out, doing tasks that are keeping the project moving (such as (mainly, actually) pinning down vague requirements, finding out project priorities, keeping the teams into which we are delivering happy and generally understanding the bigger picture) and then doing brief, on the fly testing right at the end of the Sprint. I report on what I've done so that we have a quality deliverable. BUT I'm very aware that I'm "oiling the wheels" in a very unseen way (if that makes sense). If I weren't here, they would feel it. But, currently, my input is not planned for, seen, felt, or acknowledged.
Sorry, there's a lot here. This morning I have made the point that I need earlier builds to test. They said they would get me daily builds to test, but I have no idea now when they intend this to begin! I am also concerned that the sprint has not been properly planned, so all the defects I found in the first deliverable have been conveniently forgotten about, rather than included in the planning for this sprint.
All advice would be so welcome. Thank you.
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"Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken."
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michaeljf
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Reged: 09/17/01
Posts: 3456
Loc: Yankee Land
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Try to get your work set out as tasks, with owners, so thre is some accountability. Have you tried bringing this up with the team in the retrospecitve at the end of the sprint? Can you push to get your tasks on the storyboard (or burn down if you are using Scrum) at the beginning of the sprint?
Maybe bringing up your issues at the stand-up can help, you seem to be getting some visibility now its time to expand on it.
In case you are in a group that wants to work to the technique of the process, get more familiar with it so you can bring up points where you are not being utilized as per the process. I would try to get your tasks on the burn down first though, especially the daily builds and tests so you can make sure people realize that this is a necessity for you.
- M
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- M
Nothing learns better than experience.
"So as I struggle with this issue I am confronted with the reality that noting is perfect."
- Unknown
Now wasting blog space at QAForums Blogs - The Lookout
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efficientQA
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Reged: 04/20/08
Posts: 60
Loc: NY, US
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Are you having daily SCRUM meetings? A best practice in SCRUM is to have daily meetings where the members of the SCRUM answer 3 questions:
1. What have you done since last Scrum?
2. What will you do between now and the next Scrum?
3. What is getting in the way of meeting goals of the Scrum?
If you are having meetings, how are you answering these questions? You should be working on tasks that directly rate to line items in the iteration plan.
I would suggest that you have a conversation with the SCRUM Master and raise these concerns.
Hope this helps.
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John Cook
Efficient QA
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Cies
Member
Reged: 07/11/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
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Thank you both. I greatly appreciate your input.
On Friday, our current (two week) sprint ended. We sort of swapped Scrum masters about two days into the sprint. The original Scrum master pushed the team for continuous integration, but this never happened. To be fair to the team, the deadlines are so aggressive they are loath to divert on to other things (even if it will save them time in the long run).
This burned me badly - I was supposed to get my first build to test a week ago last Wednesday. On Friday morning they gave me a "working" build, and instantly I realised it was untestable. For two reasons - one, I could not get hold of the business data I required (they had been guessing at it!) and two, the delivery didn't work anyway. Testing, had I been able to do it, wouldn't have proved hardly anything.
I take full responsibility for not being ready for test, but, in my defence, I had NO visibility of what I was getting, and assumptions had been made all round that were not satisfactory.
How do I prevent this? I bring up my issues in the Scrum, though I have to say, my perspective is just not getting the support it requires. Have just come out of a Scrum now, and raised the point that the current release, even when working, is untestable. Scrum master's response was "we'll take it up separately with the developer supporting the testing after the Scrum" (quite right) but now he has run off, clearly with no intention of following this through.
Do I have to basically sit over their shoulders as they develop, to be able to spot these test blockers as and when they arise?! (Even as I type this, I don't think it's possible!)
I think my major problem is, the Scrum master is a developer with little or no test experience.
I will add my tasks to the burndown, this is an excellent idea, as it will make clear that I just have not been able to do them.
Any other ideas?
Thank you!
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"Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken."
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philk10
Advanced Member
Reged: 01/20/05
Posts: 578
Loc: UK
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I think your major problem is that you think you are doing SCRUM but arent actually doing SCRUM
Calling things Sprints and having a ScrumMaster doesnt mean you are doing SCRUM
At the end of a sprint you are supposed to have a potentially shippable product. Do you have one of those ?
No
Teams are supposed to be self-organising and do whatever it takes to reach the end goal ( see above ). Is this happening ? Sounds like everyone has their traditional roles on the team ( is that true ? )
Was there a definition of 'done' for the end of the sprint ? can you get the team to agree on what this is ?
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 and My Blog
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michaeljf
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Reged: 09/17/01
Posts: 3456
Loc: Yankee Land
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Quote:
I bring up my issues in the Scrum, though I have to say, my perspective is just not getting the support it requires.
This says a lot right there, a ScrumMaster is supposed to get you the assistance and visibility you require. Also, if you raise an impediment at the Stand Up it is supposed to be addressed.
Because you hit this:
Quote:
Scrum master's response was "we'll take it up separately with the developer supporting the testing after the Scrum" (quite right) but now he has run off, clearly with no intention of following this through.
Not Scrum. If you have an impediment to your task its supposed to be taken up and resolved during the sprint. Delays are what Scrum is supposed to avoid. I have no idea what you are doing, but its not Scrum.
When you say you have no visibility in what Dev is doing is this because they were not sitting with you, or you with them, or that they were not brining these issues up in the daily stand-ups?
- M
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- M
Nothing learns better than experience.
"So as I struggle with this issue I am confronted with the reality that noting is perfect."
- Unknown
Now wasting blog space at QAForums Blogs - The Lookout
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Cies
Member
Reged: 07/11/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
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Hi guys
Many thanks for your time and input. I should have said at the start, we aren't really doing Agile at all! Management's defence is "we are using the scrum methodology, and timeboxing". I think it is a given we have an ineffectual Scrum master.
My question is, is there anything I can do, within these confines?! So, can we explore Quote:
When you say you have no visibility in what Dev is doing is this because they were not sitting with you, or you with them, or that they were not brining these issues up in the daily stand-ups?
- the answer is, both. Devs never looked at anything from a test perspective. They developed with little or no information, and lots of assumptions. I could have helped them clarify things, if I'd known about them. When it comes to "sitting with them", I am geographically sat with them. So sometimes I will hear things I need to know about, and can question them if I overhear. But other than that I don't really know what's going on. I am technical enough to understand the technologies they are using and the design, but somehow this isn't going far enough.
I do set and communicate exit criteria, but their interpretation of meeting it, differs from mine. If that makes sense?
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"Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken."
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philk10
Advanced Member
Reged: 01/20/05
Posts: 578
Loc: UK
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Can you get the management to clarify what they mean by 'scrum methodology' and what they hope to achieve by doing it ?
I assume you have a daily stand-up ? if so, the devs should be saying what they have worked on and what they are working on which should give you an idea of what they are doing
Can you question the devs into how they are testing their work and how they know they are 'finished' ? Can you get in earlier than that and see what information they have to start with - and then suggest tests and/or missing information or ambiguities and start showing how you can add value ?
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and My Blog
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michaeljf
Veteran
Reged: 09/17/01
Posts: 3456
Loc: Yankee Land
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You seem to have a large communication gap with the Developers, even if you are sitting with them and you still have no idea what is going on that's a big problem. If you can work on that with them individually, sometimes its easier to break into a group one at a time than all as one. Another thing, if the criteria you set are not being understood, maybe present it and make sure they understand it, perhaps a question and answer session? Game? Something to get them to repeat it back to you, without seeming to be preachy.
- M
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- M
Nothing learns better than experience.
"So as I struggle with this issue I am confronted with the reality that noting is perfect."
- Unknown
Now wasting blog space at QAForums Blogs - The Lookout
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DSquared
Moderator
Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 4546
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
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Quote:
I think it is a given we have an ineffectual Scrum master.
Right there is the root of the problem. You can address symptoms all day long, and quite possibly get some relief (e.g. the suggestion to go one-on-one with developers). But at the end of the day, if you have a scrum master who is not solving issues and removing obstacles, you will continue to be ineffective in your "scrum" implementation (I put it in quotes, because everyone has already identified that you are not really doing scrum.)
I suspect that since your scrum master was a developer, he/she has a very developer centric view and is knocking down all sorts of obstacles for the developers, you being one of them. The most effective scrum master I ever worked for was a project manager with a very strong QA background. He let the development leads ride herd on the developers and he kept QA very close. He also wasn't afraid to call a space a space, even if it included the project sponsor. No one was off-limits. If something failed a test, it went right back to the development leads in a matter of minutes. Didn't take long before they took the scrum master's example and started pushing their folks to do the right thing. We turned a failing project around in sprint 5 and we successfully finished in sprint 9. Without this type of leadership, the project would have been cancelled.
If your company truly wants to go Agile, I would recommend getting someone in who knows what Agile scrum looks like, and get a strong scrum master. But I also know that you can't make that happen.
In the meantime, good luck and wear a flak jacket under your clothes. You'll need it.
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tonybruce
Advanced Member
Reged: 06/22/07
Posts: 529
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It pretty much reads like your company wants to be able to say 'we're Agile' without actually putting in the work to 'move' to Agile development except for you, I however have never worked in a true Agile environment so I maybe talking out of my backside.
Maybe you\they need to review why the company headed down this path in the first place?
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marjana
Newbie
Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Netherlands
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It seems like you have been going through quite a lot and I have been in the exact position as you previously. I also had problems getting the developers to understand the importance of qualitative deliverables and difficulty in getting my scrum master to include my time velocity in the total team velocity counting for the sprint.
I wouldn't say it was easy to overcome. In fact it took be about an year to get recognition and understanding. I first started off with mixing bit by bit in the development team and then emphasized on different areas of importance with frequent meetings with the scrum master. When having problems, I had to elevate issues in retrospective. When issues weren't given priority in repeated retrospectives, I had to elevate to higher in charge and explained the importance of quality mindset. Now it's definitely not possible to establish something if you don't have support from management in 'Done'concept and overall as previously mentioned in the replies. Thus, within time, it was possible to set standards and importance. Unfortunately it definitely requires time and patience to get there and can be quite frustrating at times. 
You can check out my blog entry on how to do different activities in the sprint being part of the team which will eventually help you be counted and also building relationship with developers to come to a common understanding. I hope it can help you in some way
http://marjanashammi.wordpress.com/2008/05/14/how-can-a-qa-help-prevent-rather-than-cure/
http://marjanashammi.wordpress.com/2008/04/07/relationship-between-a-developer-and-a-testerqa/
Let me know how it goes. Good luck
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Cies
Member
Reged: 07/11/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
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Marjana that is an extremely useful and constructive post. I have left that company now (surprise surprise) but ended up in another that's very similar! I shall read your blog entries with interest.
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"Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken."
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qtrolazyg
Newbie
Reged: 10/12/08
Posts: 1
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I have the same issues. Thanks for asking the question, Cies.
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