SPONSORS:






User Tag List

Thanks Thanks:  0
Likes Likes:  0
Dislikes Dislikes:  0
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12
  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Agile environment

    Recently, my company uses Agile develop method, and hires a consulterfrom ThoughtWorks®, Inc (www.thoughtworks.com).

    I am confusing about the Methodology. The consulter said that:

    * We should 100% automated testing for all new functions (As for as I know that automated testing is only for regression testing, not new functions?)

    * Developer can do testing (QA Analyst is not useful for development team,and QA should learn develop skills)

    * Testing and developing will finish at the same time?

    * Manual testing is not useful, and testing team should 100% automated testing?

    Would you please tell me the consulter is right or not? How can I do my testing in the Agile environment?

  2. #2
    Moderator JakeBrake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    St. Louis - Year 2025
    Posts
    15,609
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Re: Agile environment

    Get another consultant - one that is qualified!
    Seriously!

    Your consultant is nearly 100% incorrect. Ask for your money back for such nonsense - seriously!

    [ 08-18-2005, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: JakeBrake ]

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    372
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Re: Agile environment

    I could not agree more with Jake on this. Even if what you say is badly out of context, and somewhat mis-stated, for the consultant to leave you in such a confused state is inexcusable. And your statements, as posted, are almost completely incorrect. What an all around terrible example of how consulting should not be done!

    Sincerely,
    David

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Aurora, Ont., Canada
    Posts
    1,174
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Re: Agile environment

    Joe,

    You are too nice. I think the consultant is just a fraud. Even allowing for some miscommunication or misunderstanding, just look at the key points that ColinRen states:

    * We should 100% automated testing for all new functions (As for as I know that automated testing is only for regression testing, not new functions?)

    This can technically be done, but at a huge cost, and only if you have specialists to do this task. Does the post come across as representing a team that has such experience? Of course, there is the consultant who may make themselves irreplaceable, and hold a gun to the clients head. If have seen such criminals in action.

    * Developer can do testing (QA Analyst is not useful for development team,and QA should learn develop skills)

    I understand your assumption that this is a unit testing context. However, this is agile technique usage, isn't it? How many client stakeholders are going to interact at the unit test level? There is definitely something fishy going on, someone who is hell-bent on taking testing out of their development process.

    * Testing and developing will finish at the same time?

    With what? Testing can have the scripts ready, I presume, or developers will continue to apply bug fixes until testing is satisfied perhaps. For the consultant to make an open-ended statement with no context is garbage, it is not client-focused.

    * Manual testing is not useful, and testing team should 100% automated testing?

    IBM, vendors of Rational Manual Tsting, stated up to 75% of all testing is done manually, in print, in their sales brochure. Would they casually put such facts in a document when they sell automated testing tools? I think not, and I think that this consultant does not know which side is up.
    Frits Bos, PMP
    frits_bos@hotmail.com

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,798
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Re: Agile environment

    it reads as a contextaul issue and these are practices advocated in some xp approaches and as Frits possibly stated out of context by this consultant or in this post.
    However as pointed out by chopperdog and others this specific consultant has failed in their duty/intent but rather then take a pop at a reputable company in this forum with some true domain experts (though not this consultant I am afraid) it is worth talking to the organisation and explain the issue and disatisfaction with this representative who is misrepresenting, potentially, the key messages and expertise of the organisation in a way that does not help them or the client.
    Heck if this specific consultant failed you this badly and was from the testing practice email Bret Pettichord who is the global practice director and give him the details.

    By the way what was the remit of the consultant, what was the goals and the intentions of the placement, where these clearly set, where your concerns expressed to the consultant or the management (yours and theirs?)...there is a more constructive approach possible then naming and shaming in a public forum. We do not know the full context but this does not sound like the messages I know from experts in that organisation.

    [ 08-17-2005, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: neill_mccarthy ]
    ------
    Regards,
    Neill McCarthy
    Agile Testers of the World UNIT!

    For more contextual Musings visit http://www.testingreflections.com/ and now at http://www.sqablogs.com/neillmccarthy/
    ---

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    749
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Re: Agile environment

    I have to say, Colinren has encapsulated nearly all the Agile Myths in a single posting. All the myths that, if believed, ensure the project becomes a total disaster.
    I also have to say that I have both heard these being promoted before and have seen projects attempt to put them into practice. Never, I hasten to add, when I have had input!
    Scary scary stuff.

  7. #7
    Moderator JakeBrake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    St. Louis - Year 2025
    Posts
    15,609
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Re: Agile environment

    New Agile definition:

    1) Secure a consultant position,
    2) Get a great billing rate,
    3) Give bad consult,
    4) Quickly and with great agility, make your exit!

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Aurora, Ont., Canada
    Posts
    1,174
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Re: Agile environment

    Neill,

    Thanks for emphasizing what I wanted to point out the the CONSULTANT is a fraud IF those are really the specific points CORRECTLY recalled by Colin. Many large firms have good and bad consultants on board, and sometimes people get themselves into a situation where they are out of their depth. That seems to be the case with this consultant, and it is a fact that no true consultant would leave the client hanging like that because perception is a reality when it comes to overall reputation.
    Frits Bos, PMP
    frits_bos@hotmail.com

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    nashville, tn, usa
    Posts
    86
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Re: Agile environment

    Taking a shot-in-the-dark, but maybe the consultant is talking automated *unit* tests. Since the tests are unit tests, they would be created by the developers as new functions are built.

    If you assume the developers write unit tests for *every* branch/condition, then the entire application is tested via the unit tests. And the application is tested when development is complete.

    Then the question becomes...do we accept the application when development is complete? With the primary assumption that the development-built, unit, tests prove all functionality works, and independent verification is not necessary.

  10. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    India
    Posts
    26
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Re: Agile environment

    Colin,

    Its the responsibility of the manager to decide what is good/bad for them. As a consultant, he would tell 101 things to follow/implement, but ultimately its you, who has to decide what right/wrong and useful to you.
    As pointed, there are good and bad consultants.You should have discussed with your management before sharing it here.

    -Lokesh

 

 
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.36 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2016 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 8.33%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise v2.6.4 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2016 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.2.8 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2016 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBNominate (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2016 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2016 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Username Changing provided by Username Change (Free) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2016 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
BetaSoft Inc.
Digital Point modules: Sphinx-based search
All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:40 AM.

Copyright BetaSoft Inc.