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  1. #1
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    BVA with numbers ONLY..

    Why is that most software testers (including some authors) explain BVA using numbers only?
    Is there a particular reason for this?

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    Re: BVA with numbers ONLY..

    I imagine because it is an easier concept to grasp than with alphanumeric data. For example, 1000 is pretty clearly outside the range 1-999, but where does "%*$F&B" fit in "aaaaa" through "zzzzz" ?

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    Re: BVA with numbers ONLY..

    The reason I am asking is coz, recently I attended a workshop by Pradeep Soundarajan.

    In this workshop he explained a concept on beyond boundary Value.

    As an example: He used powerpoint.
    He entered some text in the slide, highlighted it and explained that the font size (in the toolbar) should have changed.

    He explained that with tradition BVA it would not have been possible to find this issue.

    I was wondering if anyone else also has some understanding on using BVA without numbers or alphabets.

  4. #4
    Moderator JakeBrake's Avatar
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    Re: BVA with numbers ONLY..

    It is good practice for instructors to solicit feedback. Did you have an opportunity to provide feedback.

    Have you tried Google?

    Here is additional information on BVA.
    http://blogs.msdn.com/imtesty/archive/20...peculation.aspx

    [ QUOTE ]
    ... <font color="blue">I attended a workshop by Pradeep Soundarajan. In this workshop he explained a concept on beyond boundary Value. As an example: He used powerpoint. He entered some text in the slide, highlighted it and explained that the font size (in the toolbar) should have changed. He explained that with tradition BVA it would not have been possible to find this issue.</font>

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I do not think of this as a good example for demonstrating BVA. I think it is a good example for demonstrating the MS implementation with respect to fonts, highlighting, etc. Also, I can understand that he may have meant the boundaries of what was highlighted, but I think he encountered a feature that works as intended by highlighting too much text. It is very likely the highlighted area included part of the next line, which would take the default font and size. Instead of highlighting all, why not just put the cursor somewhere in the text to get the font size and type??
    .
    .
    [ QUOTE ]
    ... <font color="blue">He explained that with tradition BVA it would not have been possible to find this issue.</font>

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I am in total disagreement with this statement. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Maybe you could ask him to elaborate. Maybe you could ask him to describe the precise differences between traditional and non-traditional BVA??

  5. #5
    Moderator Joe Strazzere's Avatar
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    Re: BVA with numbers ONLY..

    [ QUOTE ]
    In this workshop he explained a concept on beyond boundary Value.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    What name did he use for this concept?

    I agree that boundary values are typically first explained in terms of numbers. But I've usually heard instructors then go on to show how boundaries are everywhere.
    Joe Strazzere
    Visit my website: AllThingsQuality.com to learn more about quality, testing, and QA!

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    Re: BVA with numbers ONLY..

    [ QUOTE ]

    It is good practice for instructors to solicit feedback. Did you have an opportunity to provide feedback.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    [ QUOTE ]


    I do not think of this as a good example for demonstrating BVA. I think it is a good example for demonstrating the MS implementation with respect to fonts, highlighting, etc. Also, I can understand that he may have meant the boundaries of what was highlighted, but I think he encountered a feature that works as intended by highlighting too much text. It is very likely the highlighted area included part of the next line, which would take the default font and size. Instead of highlighting all, why not just put the cursor somewhere in the text to get the font size and type??


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I did pose a question on how he is calling this as BVA (or an extension of BVA).
    What we are actually doing is changing the state of one part of an application and then verifying that some other part of the application is affected or not.
    However, there was a lot of cross discussion and a bunch of other questions were also posed. This resulted in my question being surpressed.

  7. #7
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    Re: BVA with numbers ONLY..

    I did not want to give up on this discussion and went researching:

    I found some interesting blog posts.

    http://www.testingreflections.com/node/view/5680
    http://shrinik.blogspot.com/2007/03/...ation-bve.html
    http://testertested.blogspot.com/200...n-testing.html
    http://blogs.msdn.com/imtesty/archive/20...peculation.aspx
    http://blogs.msdn.com/imtesty/archiv...encodings.aspx
    http://blogs.msdn.com/imtesty/archiv...mp3-files.aspx
    http://www.testingreflections.com/node/view/4828


    On each blog, I found some interesting comments. A few are:
    - Boundaries with proximity to the inputs and boundaries with proximity to the outputs.
    - Boundary Value Exploration
    http://shrinik.blogspot.com/2007/03/...ation-bve.html

    - Boundary testing is an analytical process based on rational thought.
    - "very well known" boundaries and "not so well known or unknown” boundaries
    - differentiation between "Extreme ranges of data types and other variables (I am not sure what other variables you are referring to)" vs. "Maximum and minimum physical ranges of variables" -
    http://blogs.msdn.com/imtesty/archiv...encodings.aspx

  8. #8
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    Re: BVA with numbers ONLY..

    [ QUOTE ]
    What name did he use for this concept?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I had attended around 7 to 8 workshops, and I did not make good notes. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

    I think he referred it to as "Expanding Boundary Value" or maybe it was "Beyond Boundary Value"
    I cannot be sure.

    I have sent him an email, requesting him to share the copy of his presentation.

  9. #9
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    Re: BVA with numbers ONLY..

    Gaurav -

    I have a short answer and long answer ....

    Short answer -- People explain BVA in numbers because it is easy. Numbers are most easy items to understand and compare. You dont need to know more rigourus maths to follow and apply BVA in practice if you subscribe to a BVA in numbers.

    I even wonder - why it is called analsis - I can ask my 8 year old daughter to given 6 numbers given 2 numbers as limits. Where is analysis here? what are we trying to analyse?

    One sure thing people (explaining BVA in numbers) have managed to do --- horribly simplify the concept of BVA thereby bring a bad name to an otherwise interesting test technique.

    For a useful and interesting discussion - let us first ask in how many different ways one can see,imagine, concieve and articulate the concept of "boundary" ....?

    Why we should worry about boundaries ( Don't bother with age old - beaten to death - idea of "Common errors happen at boundaries" - give something new)

    At what level we should worry about boundaries?

    What actually happens near boundary?

    What is there beyond boundaries? what is Last boundary?

    Do we (programmers, testers and users) construct boundaries? or boundaries are inherrently present?

    What about imaginary boundaries?

    What types of contructs, features, variables - modeling by boundaries apply?

    What does "systems thinking" tells about dealing with boundaries ....

    I can go on ....

    Note: I am not sure the example you quoted with respect to Pradeep's powerpoint behaviour - can be qualified as boundary related test idea or may be Pradeep meant a different definition or connotation of word boundary in that context ....

    Shrini Kulkarni
    http://shrinik.blogspot.com
    Shrini Kulkarni
    Test Consultant
    Bangalore

  10. #10
    Moderator JakeBrake's Avatar
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    Re: BVA with numbers ONLY..

    Shrini, thank you for your well-thought out and articulated post. It is refreshing to have such a post.

    I might suggest adding:
    - What about dynamic boundaries?
    - How about byte, word, etc. boundaries?
    - How about major micro-processor changes such as 16-bit to 32-bit to 64-bit engines and impacts to compilers and boundary shifts that typically occur?

 

 
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